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 Posted: Fri Aug 29th, 2008 10:52 pm
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Tad2
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Mana: 
 Wild H Woman wrote: I propose we all save our Wal-Mart receipts and chock the wheels of an airliner!  :P

I do save all my receipts! They won't hardly let you exchange or get a refund if you don't have it!

As for chocking the wheels of an airliner, I once chocked the wheels of my girfriend's car to see what she would do when she tried to move the car! It was hillarious!

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 Posted: Sat Aug 30th, 2008 12:37 am
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Rdnckgirl1973
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Mana: 
 You only mentioned a receipt in that post.  We never discussed a receipt during the debate.
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 Posted: Sat Aug 30th, 2008 04:31 am
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Mana: 
 Rdnckgirl1973 wrote: You only mentioned a receipt in that post.  We never discussed a receipt during the debate.

You said, and I quote "You know what!  You have never even mentioned a receipt in our discussion!  You are unreal"...

I stand by my thoughts about this. If someone comes up to me and asks me if I have concealed something, I would ask them what I'm supposed to have concealed, then allow them to look if they are unsatisfied.

What I will not tolerate is someone following me in the store, into the lobby, or out the door accusing me of stealing. As I said previously, if I have a receipt, and you can bet I will unless someone has planted something on me, they would be in deep deep do do....
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 Posted: Mon Sep 1st, 2008 01:43 pm
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Mana: 
 Tad2 wrote: FRL88 wrote: by the engines not being started.
No, you can chock the wheels and open the throttle wide open but the plane will not move an inch! The turbine engines must have motion before their propulsion starts to take effect! That's why you sometimes see the motorized vehicles pulling or pushing planes around an airport.

Sorry have to throw the BS flag here. Not only will the plane move but it will also jump out of the chocks, how do I know, been there done that!
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 Posted: Mon Sep 1st, 2008 02:48 pm
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Wild H Woman
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Mana: 
 hazygray wrote: Tad2 wrote: FRL88 wrote: by the engines not being started.
No, you can chock the wheels and open the throttle wide open but the plane will not move an inch! The turbine engines must have motion before their propulsion starts to take effect! That's why you sometimes see the motorized vehicles pulling or pushing planes around an airport.

Sorry have to throw the BS flag here. Not only will the plane move but it will also jump out of the chocks, how do I know, been there done that!

I was wondering when you were gonna jump in here and straighten this mess out.  :D
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 Posted: Mon Sep 1st, 2008 03:48 pm
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Tad2
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Mana: 
 hazygray wrote: Tad2 wrote: FRL88 wrote: by the engines not being started.
No, you can chock the wheels and open the throttle wide open but the plane will not move an inch! The turbine engines must have motion before their propulsion starts to take effect! That's why you sometimes see the motorized vehicles pulling or pushing planes around an airport.

Sorry have to throw the BS flag here. Not only will the plane move but it will also jump out of the chocks, how do I know, been there done that!

You must have had very small chocks and alternately gunned the engines in order to get it to move. Otherwise, you would had to have used some external power other than the plane's engines. You sound like an expert BS 'er...
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 Posted: Mon Sep 1st, 2008 04:23 pm
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stoker
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Mana: 
 Tad2 wrote: hazygray wrote: Tad2 wrote: FRL88 wrote: by the engines not being started.
No, you can chock the wheels and open the throttle wide open but the plane will not move an inch! The turbine engines must have motion before their propulsion starts to take effect! That's why you sometimes see the motorized vehicles pulling or pushing planes around an airport.

Sorry have to throw the BS flag here. Not only will the plane move but it will also jump out of the chocks, how do I know, been there done that!

You must have had very small chocks and alternately gunned the engines in order to get it to move. Otherwise, you would had to have used some external power other than the plane's engines. You sound like an expert BS 'er...The fact that he worked on the flight deck of an aircraft carrier for years may have something to do with his knowledge.  Wonder why aviators have to try and mash the brake pedals through the floor when they are coming to full military power?  The Cat just helps for the short (think less than 500' here) runway that is available:shock:
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 Posted: Mon Sep 1st, 2008 04:29 pm
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Tad2
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Mana: 
 stoker wrote: Tad2 wrote: hazygray wrote: Tad2 wrote: FRL88 wrote: by the engines not being started.
No, you can chock the wheels and open the throttle wide open but the plane will not move an inch! The turbine engines must have motion before their propulsion starts to take effect! That's why you sometimes see the motorized vehicles pulling or pushing planes around an airport.

Sorry have to throw the BS flag here. Not only will the plane move but it will also jump out of the chocks, how do I know, been there done that!

You must have had very small chocks and alternately gunned the engines in order to get it to move. Otherwise, you would had to have used some external power other than the plane's engines. You sound like an expert BS 'er...The fact that he worked on the flight deck of an aircraft carrier for years may have something to do with his knowledge.  Wonder why aviators have to try and mash the brake pedals through the floor when they are coming to full military power?  The Cat just helps for the short (think less than 500' here) runway that is available:shock:

That explains his response...! He didn't say he had done it with a 737 or 747, it must have been a Navy jet. They throttle up (with brakes on) and when they get ready to launch they release their brakes, and with the aid of the catapault (sp) are launched off the carrier.  I am a Navy veteran too.
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 Posted: Mon Sep 1st, 2008 07:09 pm
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hazygray
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Mana: 
 Tad2 wrote: stoker wrote: Tad2 wrote: hazygray wrote: Tad2 wrote: FRL88 wrote: by the engines not being started.
No, you can chock the wheels and open the throttle wide open but the plane will not move an inch! The turbine engines must have motion before their propulsion starts to take effect! That's why you sometimes see the motorized vehicles pulling or pushing planes around an airport.

Sorry have to throw the BS flag here. Not only will the plane move but it will also jump out of the chocks, how do I know, been there done that!

You must have had very small chocks and alternately gunned the engines in order to get it to move. Otherwise, you would had to have used some external power other than the plane's engines. You sound like an expert BS 'er...The fact that he worked on the flight deck of an aircraft carrier for years may have something to do with his knowledge.  Wonder why aviators have to try and mash the brake pedals through the floor when they are coming to full military power?  The Cat just helps for the short (think less than 500' here) runway that is available:shock:

That explains his response...! He didn't say he had done it with a 737 or 747, it must have been a Navy jet. They throttle up (with brakes on) and when they get ready to launch they release their brakes, and with the aid of the catapault (sp) are launched off the carrier.  I am a Navy veteran too.
Gotta be a snipe,:D 737 & 747 also throttle up (with brakes on) and when they get ready to launch they release their brakes
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 Posted: Mon Sep 1st, 2008 09:23 pm
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stoker
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Mana: 
 hazygray wrote: Tad2 wrote: stoker wrote: Tad2 wrote: hazygray wrote: Tad2 wrote: FRL88 wrote: by the engines not being started.
No, you can chock the wheels and open the throttle wide open but the plane will not move an inch! The turbine engines must have motion before their propulsion starts to take effect! That's why you sometimes see the motorized vehicles pulling or pushing planes around an airport.

Sorry have to throw the BS flag here. Not only will the plane move but it will also jump out of the chocks, how do I know, been there done that!

You must have had very small chocks and alternately gunned the engines in order to get it to move. Otherwise, you would had to have used some external power other than the plane's engines. You sound like an expert BS 'er...The fact that he worked on the flight deck of an aircraft carrier for years may have something to do with his knowledge.  Wonder why aviators have to try and mash the brake pedals through the floor when they are coming to full military power?  The Cat just helps for the short (think less than 500' here) runway that is available:shock:

That explains his response...! He didn't say he had done it with a 737 or 747, it must have been a Navy jet. They throttle up (with brakes on) and when they get ready to launch they release their brakes, and with the aid of the catapault (sp) are launched off the carrier.  I am a Navy veteran too.
Gotta be a snipe,:D 737 & 747 also throttle up (with brakes on) and when they get ready to launch they release their brakesHazy, he might be.  LOL   Course I knew that and I wouldn't go near the flight deck.  One could get nose bleeds at that altitude.
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 Posted: Mon Sep 1st, 2008 09:41 pm
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stoker
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Mana: 
 Tad2 

A question here while we're on the subject and already hijacked this thread. I worked in an aircraft repair and overhaul facility and testing jet engines was one of the job responsibilities.  When we cranked jet engines up through their ranges, we bolted the engines to a frame that was bolted to the ground. The reasoning was to keep the things from screaming off into who knows where.  Why then if they are mounted on a plane with wheels, does the plane not move when they are spooled up without prior forward momentum of the plane? If you need to know how a jet engine works, ask. I'm sure there are enough people on here with the knowledge that can enlighten you.  After that answer, we can go into how a jet can fly at low through supersonic speeds through different altitudes with different air densities.:D
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 Posted: Mon Sep 1st, 2008 09:46 pm
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DIAMOND IN THE ROUGH
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Mana: 
 How does a jet engine work?

Jet engines move the airplane forward with a great force that is produced by a tremendous thrust and causes the plane to fly very fast.

All jet engines, which are also called gas turbines, work on the same principle. The engine sucks air in at the front with a fan. A compressor raises the pressure of the air. The compressor is made up of fans with many blades and attached to a shaft. The blades compress the air. The compressed air is then sprayed with fuel and an electric spark lights the mixture. The burning gases expand and blast out through the nozzle, at the back of the engine. As the jets of gas shoot backward, the engine and the aircraft are thrust forward.

The image below shows how the air flows through the engine. The air goes through the core of the engine as well as around the core. This causes some of the air to be very hot and some to be cooler. The cooler air then mixes with the hot air at the engine exit area.



 


This is a picture of how the air flows through an engine


What is Thrust?

Thrust is the forward force that pushes the engine and, therefore, the airplane forward. Sir Isaac Newton discovered that for "every action there is an equal and opposite reaction." An engine uses this principle. The engine takes in a large volume of air. The air is heated and compressed and slowed down. The air is forced through many spinning blades. By mixing this air with jet fuel, the temperature of the air can be as high as three thousand degrees. The power of the air is used to turn the turbine. Finally, when the air leaves, it pushes backward out of the engine. This causes the plane to move forward.


 
Parts of a Jet Engine


Fan - The fan is the first component in a turbofan. The large spinning fan sucks in large quantities of air. Most blades of the fan are made of titanium. It then speeds this air up and splits it into two parts. One part continues through the "core" or center of the engine, where it is acted upon by the other engine components.

The second part "bypasses" the core of the engine. It goes through a duct that surrounds the core to the back of the engine where it produces much of the force that propels the airplane forward. This cooler air helps to quiet the engine as well as adding thrust to the engine.

Compressor - The compressor is the first component in the engine core. The compressor is made up of fans with many blades and attached to a shaft. The compressor squeezes the air that enters it into progressively smaller areas, resulting in an increase in the air pressure. This results in an increase in the energy potential of the air. The squashed air is forced into the combustion chamber.

Combustor - In the combustor the air is mixed with fuel and then ignited. There are as many as 20 nozzles to spray fuel into the airstream. The mixture of air and fuel catches fire. This provides a high temperature, high-energy airflow. The fuel burns with the oxygen in the compressed air, producing hot expanding gases. The inside of the combustor is often made of ceramic materials to provide a heat-resistant chamber. The heat can reach 2700°.

Turbine - The high-energy airflow coming out of the combustor goes into the turbine, causing the turbine blades to rotate. The turbines are linked by a shaft to turn the blades in the compressor and to spin the intake fan at the front. This rotation takes some energy from the high-energy flow that is used to drive the fan and the compressor. The gases produced in the combustion chamber move through the turbine and spin its blades. The turbines of the jet spin around thousands of times. They are fixed on shafts which have several sets of ball-bearing in between them.

Nozzle - The nozzle is the exhaust duct of the engine. This is the engine part which actually produces the thrust for the plane. The energy depleted airflow that passed the turbine, in addition to the colder air that bypassed the engine core, produces a force when exiting the nozzle that acts to propel the engine, and therefore the airplane, forward. The combination of the hot air and cold air are expelled and produce an exhaust, which causes a forward thrust. The nozzle may be preceded by a mixer, which combines the high temperature air coming from the engine core with the lower temperature air that was bypassed in the fan. The mixer helps to make the engine quieter.

Last edited on Mon Sep 1st, 2008 09:47 pm by DIAMOND IN THE ROUGH
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 Posted: Mon Sep 1st, 2008 11:09 pm
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Tad2
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Mana: 
 hazygray wrote: Tad2 wrote: stoker wrote: Tad2 wrote: hazygray wrote: Tad2 wrote: FRL88 wrote: by the engines not being started.
No, you can chock the wheels and open the throttle wide open but the plane will not move an inch! The turbine engines must have motion before their propulsion starts to take effect! That's why you sometimes see the motorized vehicles pulling or pushing planes around an airport.

Sorry have to throw the BS flag here. Not only will the plane move but it will also jump out of the chocks, how do I know, been there done that!

You must have had very small chocks and alternately gunned the engines in order to get it to move. Otherwise, you would had to have used some external power other than the plane's engines. You sound like an expert BS 'er...The fact that he worked on the flight deck of an aircraft carrier for years may have something to do with his knowledge.  Wonder why aviators have to try and mash the brake pedals through the floor when they are coming to full military power?  The Cat just helps for the short (think less than 500' here) runway that is available:shock:

That explains his response...! He didn't say he had done it with a 737 or 747, it must have been a Navy jet. They throttle up (with brakes on) and when they get ready to launch they release their brakes, and with the aid of the catapault (sp) are launched off the carrier.  I am a Navy veteran too.
Gotta be a snipe,:D 737 & 747 also throttle up (with brakes on) and when they get ready to launch they release their brakes

That's funny, I thought you might be a Snipe myself! I worked in communications.;)

I am well aware you can throttle up a 737/747 with the brakes on, but have you ever pulled full throttle on that particular aircraft, with the wheels chocked, and made the plane take off? You will probably say you have (on a carrier) LoL
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 Posted: Mon Sep 1st, 2008 11:16 pm
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Tad2
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Mana: 
 stoker wrote: Tad2 

A question here while we're on the subject and already hijacked this thread. I worked in an aircraft repair and overhaul facility and testing jet engines was one of the job responsibilities.  When we cranked jet engines up through their ranges, we bolted the engines to a frame that was bolted to the ground. The reasoning was to keep the things from screaming off into who knows where.  Why then if they are mounted on a plane with wheels, does the plane not move when they are spooled up without prior forward momentum of the plane? If you need to know how a jet engine works, ask. I'm sure there are enough people on here with the knowledge that can enlighten you.  After that answer, we can go into how a jet can fly at low through supersonic speeds through different altitudes with different air densities.:D

I'll be honest with you. I have never flown a jet, but have ridden many. I was taught that by a physics instructor in San Diego CA Naval School when I was in the Navy. Perhaps the reason you had to bolt the engines to the floor to test them was the same reason you can chock the wheels on a 737/747 and open the throttle up! The combination of the weight of the aircraft sitting still with the wheels chocked leaves it incapable of achieving motion, which it must have in order for the turbines to give it the thrust it needs to take off.

Enlighten me! I'm always open to those who know what they speak of!

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 Posted: Mon Sep 1st, 2008 11:21 pm
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Tad2
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 DIAMOND IN THE ROUGH wrote: How does a jet engine work?

Jet engines move the airplane forward with a great force that is produced by a tremendous thrust and causes the plane to fly very fast.

All jet engines, which are also called gas turbines, work on the same principle. The engine sucks air in at the front with a fan. A compressor raises the pressure of the air. The compressor is made up of fans with many blades and attached to a shaft. The blades compress the air. The compressed air is then sprayed with fuel and an electric spark lights the mixture. The burning gases expand and blast out through the nozzle, at the back of the engine. As the jets of gas shoot backward, the engine and the aircraft are thrust forward.

The image below shows how the air flows through the engine. The air goes through the core of the engine as well as around the core. This causes some of the air to be very hot and some to be cooler. The cooler air then mixes with the hot air at the engine exit area.




 



This is a picture of how the air flows through an engine


What is Thrust?


Thrust is the forward force that pushes the engine and, therefore, the airplane forward. Sir Isaac Newton discovered that for "every action there is an equal and opposite reaction." An engine uses this principle. The engine takes in a large volume of air. The air is heated and compressed and slowed down. The air is forced through many spinning blades. By mixing this air with jet fuel, the temperature of the air can be as high as three thousand degrees. The power of the air is used to turn the turbine. Finally, when the air leaves, it pushes backward out of the engine. This causes the plane to move forward.


 
Parts of a Jet Engine



Fan - The fan is the first component in a turbofan. The large spinning fan sucks in large quantities of air. Most blades of the fan are made of titanium. It then speeds this air up and splits it into two parts. One part continues through the "core" or center of the engine, where it is acted upon by the other engine components.

The second part "bypasses" the core of the engine. It goes through a duct that surrounds the core to the back of the engine where it produces much of the force that propels the airplane forward. This cooler air helps to quiet the engine as well as adding thrust to the engine.

Compressor - The compressor is the first component in the engine core. The compressor is made up of fans with many blades and attached to a shaft. The compressor squeezes the air that enters it into progressively smaller areas, resulting in an increase in the air pressure. This results in an increase in the energy potential of the air. The squashed air is forced into the combustion chamber.

Combustor - In the combustor the air is mixed with fuel and then ignited. There are as many as 20 nozzles to spray fuel into the airstream. The mixture of air and fuel catches fire. This provides a high temperature, high-energy airflow. The fuel burns with the oxygen in the compressed air, producing hot expanding gases. The inside of the combustor is often made of ceramic materials to provide a heat-resistant chamber. The heat can reach 2700°.

Turbine - The high-energy airflow coming out of the combustor goes into the turbine, causing the turbine blades to rotate. The turbines are linked by a shaft to turn the blades in the compressor and to spin the intake fan at the front. This rotation takes some energy from the high-energy flow that is used to drive the fan and the compressor. The gases produced in the combustion chamber move through the turbine and spin its blades. The turbines of the jet spin around thousands of times. They are fixed on shafts which have several sets of ball-bearing in between them.

Nozzle - The nozzle is the exhaust duct of the engine. This is the engine part which actually produces the thrust for the plane. The energy depleted airflow that passed the turbine, in addition to the colder air that bypassed the engine core, produces a force when exiting the nozzle that acts to propel the engine, and therefore the airplane, forward. The combination of the hot air and cold air are expelled and produce an exhaust, which causes a forward thrust. The nozzle may be preceded by a mixer, which combines the high temperature air coming from the engine core with the lower temperature air that was bypassed in the fan. The mixer helps to make the engine quieter.


Excellent information! However, I see no explanation of the fact that a turbine engine on an airliner cannot move that airliner unless it has initial motion.

What would happen if you jacked the airliner up off the ground and opened the throttles? I beliee you would have the same situation you would have if the turbines were bolted to the floor. 
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